a little doubt

[pixiedustboy]

what does it mean when an astrologer says a sign is "overcome by" ? (for example, "the sign that is overcome by the malefic?")

Discussion

[probslepsy]

You may be referring to a condition where a planet is ‘overcome’ by another planet that squares it from the left.

For example Mercury in the 4th house may be overcome by Mars in the 1st house (if you put the houses on a line in numerical order you’ll see that the 1st is to the left of the 4th).

While in this example Mercury may be said to be overcome by Mars, you might also say that Mars is in a superior square to Mercury. Both mean the same thing – Mars is putting pressure on Mercury.

That’s usually the context in which I encounter other astrologers using the term ‘overcome/overcoming’.

[MirceaFive]

The seven aspects are:

left/right sextile
left/right square
left right trine
opposition

There is a very real difference in interpretation.

Jupiter right square Mars (same thing as Mars left square Jupiter) would indicate someone that is respected and holds a high position most likely in the military or government relative to the chart basis.

So if the chart basis is “Drone” that would be a lieutenant or captain (an ensign, lieutenant or lieutenant junior grade in the Navy) or a probate, juvenile, family or muni court judge.

In the chart of one of the Extraordinary People that would be a major, light colonel or bird colonel (a lieutenant commander, commander or captain in the Navy) or a common please or superior court judge (in New York a “supreme” court judge).

For one of the Beautiful People that would be a general/admiral with 1-3 stars or a judge on an appellate court or the court of last resort (n the smaller states).

For one of the Elite that would be a general/admiral with 4 stars or a judge on the federal supreme court or one of the supreme courts of the larger states (like Ohio, Texas, Michigan, California, New York or Pennsylvania.)

Flip the script and put Mars right square Jupiter (same thing as Jupiter left square Mars) and you have someone who suffers extreme mental anxiety and constantly makes bad decisions. In the chart of a Loser or Drone that would be disastrous but in the charts of the Beautiful and Elite it’s probably a minor nuisance (in the charts of the Beautiful and Elite malefics function as benefics).

This concept is based on zodiac order and signs move counter-clockwise around the chart.

So, Aries Jupiter right square Cancer Mars has Jupiter in the succeeding sign overcoming/overtaking Mars in Cancer in the preceding sign.

Note that is classic mutual reception because Mars is in the exaltation of Jupiter and Jupiter in the sign of Mars.

Gemini Jupiter opposition Sagittarius Mercury is not mutual reception but Virgo Jupiter opposition Pisces Mercury is because Virgo is the exaltation of Mercury and Pisces is the sign of Jupiter.

You can ignore “superiority” because that is a corruption of overcoming. Some texts will state that a star above the horizon is in a superior position by aspect to a star below the horizon. You can thank non-astrologer commentators like Ptolemy and Rhetorius and the idiot Arabs and Persians who understood Greek about as well as you understand Klingon for creating the confusion.

So Capricorn Jupiter in the 11th Place right square Aries Mars in the 2nd Place, yes Jupiter is in the superior position but not because he’s above the horizon. It’s because he’s in a succeeding sign.

Be careful because in predictive methods it’s exactly the opposite.

Directed Mars to natal Jupiter is going to be something good. Directed Jupiter to natal Mars is going to be something bad. If you have trouble with the concepts of form/matter or space/time read the Hermetics or Stoics like Timaeus or Plato or Marcus Aurelius. If you read Aristotle you’ll get it wrong.

[MirceaFive]

If you want to see how destructive Jupiter to Mars is then look at the chart of John Lennon.

He has Aries rising with Fortune in the 10th. I always direct the ASC through the bound and use either planetary periods (and no, not the stupid silly Firdaria or whatever it is) or I direct Fortune (because it represents the body and emotions).

In April 1980 Fortune moves to the Scorpio 8th Place ruled by Mars and where chart ruler Mercury sits. Fortune begins its monthly distributions from there. That is not a good sign.

In December 1980, Fortune’s monthly sub-distribution begins from Aries and that’s when the daily sub-distributions start. That’s 10 reasons to cast a solar return.

The solar return has Virgo Jupiter right sextile Scorpio Mars. Not cool. That is doubly destructive because Virgo commands Scorpio. Make absolutely certain you know the meanings of the signs forwards and backwards and I don’t mean “*Virgo is industrious, studious, scientific, blah, blah*, *blah*” you’ll never make a prediction with that crap. You need to know which signs command or see other signs and those of equal power or are like-engirding.

Jupiter (or Sun) transiting the 4th or 7th is unpleasant and Mars transiting the 7th or 10th is unpleasant, too.

On December 8, Lennon has Jupiter along with Saturn transiting the Libra 7th and both right square Mars transiting the Capricorn 10th. That’s destructive and the only thing worse would be Sun and Jupiter transiting the 7th right square Mars transiting the 10th. Also, transiting Venus is in Scorpio conjunct chart ruler Mercury and sextile her natal self in Virgo and Virgo commands Scorpio.

I should also mention Fortune begins its monthly and daily sub-distributions from Aries on December 8 at exactly 6:30 pm. Lennon was shot and killed 2 hours earlier at 4:30 pm. No, we do not attempt to rectify his chart and those of you trying to time things down to the minute/second, just stop it already. You cannot be more accurate than the method you’re using permits.

Do not use *Planets in Transit.*

First of all, Robert Hand sold the rights to the book so he no longer owns it or controls it and second of all, he’s on record as saying all the delineations are wrong. They’re wrong because he wrote the book 20 years before he figured out the Arabs and Persians totally butchered the transit doctrines and the Renaissance astrologer compounded their mistakes and the Classical astrologer messed it up even more.

Two stars in the same sign is not an aspect. They are co-present and they are conjunct when in the same degree or one is applying within 6° and has not yet reached the 3° separation.

Two stars co-present/conjunct merge their natures to become one. That’s different than an aspect where one star is trying to influence another star. The star on the right has the greater power to influence but the signs also come into play based upon whether one commands another, or sees another, or they are of equal power/like engirding.

[Optimism_Bias]

similar/related the same condition can be said if 2 planets are in the same sign, where the one with the smaller number of degrees can be said to overcome the planet at later degrees of the sign.