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Discussion
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Note: I messaged the mods prior to posting this to make sure it was cool and got the go-ahead!
Hello there to all witches, warlocks, and fae folks! Today is International Men’s Day!
Men around the world are often raised and conditioned to believe that masculinity is a very clear-cut and specific set of social norms and rules that must be followed in order to preserve their status as a “man.” This applies to cultures around the world, but the effect is the same: little boys growing up and being told that expressing vulnerable emotions (fear, sadness, embarrassment, etc.) is weak, feminine, or homosexual. We see men hurting deeply and feeling unable to discuss their hurt with even their closest friends and family. We see boys and men severely limit their creative outlets over fear of enjoying something “for girls.” We see men act impulsively on strong emotions because they were taught that anger and rage are the only appropriate response to feeling hurt, and in the process cause immense suffering to themselves and others.
THAT is toxic masculinity. A self-imposed prison that we were raised to believe we could not leave and still identify as masculine. A prison that limits us so significantly that many of us would rather take our own lives than even consider speaking to a therapist, or even a friend.
I am aware this is a women-centered sub, but there are tons of men on this sub (like me) who love the content, identify with the vibe, and want to continue to uplift people whenever possible. Let’s use this day and the platforms at our disposal to send messages of support to all the men/masc/male-identifying folks out there who feel isolated, lost, unheard, or unloved. Toxic masculinity is not a vibe for anyone, and men tend to suffer most as a result of staying beholden to it. So lets come together, have ongoing discussions about how to best attack toxic masculinity while raising up men, and flex the love and solidarity that this sub is known for.
So I’ll ask men/masc folks:
– What would you need in your life to feel supported?
– Have you ever effectively challenged your own or someone else’s toxic behaviors? How’d you do it?
– How do you define masculinity in a healthy way?Thank you for reading if you got this far and Happy International Men’s Day!
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International Men’s Day discussion thread: Challenging Toxic Masculinity and Oppressive Patriarchal Systems by Lifting Up and Supporting Men and Healthy Masculinity
updated 2 years, 5 months ago
2 Members
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Replies
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Love this post! I think we can’t truly be equal until men are able to embrace their authentic selves as well. Fuck everything we’ve been taught. So far it’s only caused misery. It’s time we got rid of all those stupid rules.
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I will share something my wife tweeted in response to a tweet of mine:
Yep, that’s *my* husband: Mr. Emotional, the DDP addict! (I definitely win this round, female ancestors – you can keep your macho, abusive, alcoholic men!)
This was my tweet:
Sometimes I write on my lunch break.
Sidenote, don’t write highly emotional scenes in the breakroom. Crying while typing can make some people uncomfortable.
Who knew. -
For anyone interested in this subject and fostering environments where healthy masculinity can thrive r/menslib is a cool feminist sub with a central focus on men’s issues
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Howdy!
Thanks for posting this topic. I feel as though I could write for days so I’ll try to keep it brief and *mostly* on point.
When I was 11 I hit my growth spurt and became the tallest person in my *entire* extended family, and I’ve retained that crown for the past two decades. This meant sports must be easy for me because I’m the largest person on the field, right? Except I’m uncoordinated AF and hate sports.
I spent my life being taught that I have to be careful because I don’t know my own strength, while simultaneously being degraded and emasculated because how am I so weak that I can’t push everyone around? Like I mean I could but I’ve been taught not to. So, who do I listen to?
Having everyone on your teams constantly saying how much a waste of potential it is, that if they had my size they’d be the greatest there ever was. Go off, I guess. Is this at best a back-handed compliment? Seems like 99% insulting.
As far as a self-imposed prison goes, I’ve always been jealous of society’s acceptance of the extent to which women are able to alter their appearance. Sure, eccentric colors in your hair or super prominent tattoos will draw the ire of society (at least for most of my life, less lately – and mileage may vary by zip) but by and large, fashion exists for you. There are enough options that if money were no issue, you could wear a unique outfit multiple times a day for your life without repeating. The same does not hold true for men, and certainly not for big & tall men. Most of my life, my shopping centered exclusively around what would fit me, not what I liked and not what was fashionable. Just, here’s the one single option this store has that you can get by in. You’re welcome.
It was a struggle to accept that I was too large for men’s standards, but too weak/soft for men’s standards. Guess this world isn’t designed or accommodating for people like me.
That took a long time to get past, depression for years from the sheer inability to find joy in the ability to dress myself in clothes that reflected my personality. A task I imagine most people take for granted.
The depression stripped away the confidence of even trying new things or being open to searching harder for things that might fit. Complacency was comforting. But eventually I did realize it was a self imposed prison.
I painted my nails. I dyed my hair. I bought clothes online that reflected who I felt I was. I got my hands tattooed. And I stopped giving a fuck about how others might perceive me, because the thing I’ve shied away from accepting for so long, that I’m not a fraud due to my size, has given me the freedom to feel confident about the choices I make.
I stand tall, 6’6” tall to be exact, with my size 16 purple chucks and my purple hair and my knuckle tattoos and am for once truly happy. Looking goofy as shit for all I know.
This is my life to live, not theirs, and I don’t care if I’m subpar by societal standards of what it means to be a man.
Edit: I realize in hindsight I was in fact mostly offpoint, but I appreciate all of the support from everyone here anyway. Having a space to talk safely is invaluable, so anyone reading this: don’t bottle things up. Message a friend, a family member; message me. Find a therapist. Take your mental health seriously. Thank you 🙂
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TW! (Mentions of sexual abuse)
YES!!! Men are so fucking hurt by patriarchy too. I am not a guy, but I want to say that male survivors of sexual abuse need SO MUCH MORE SUPPORT.
I had my own story about being sexually abused and when I finally started sharing my story I was shocked that the first 3 men I told had absolutely heartbreaking stories of their own and all three had carried that all by themselves for their entire lives.
I had carried my story alone for a while too, but I also had so many stories of so many strong women who suffered through abuse but healed and learned to thrive anyway- it was awful and so hard, but other women had done so much to light the way for me. I knew I wasn’t alone, even when I was.
But who does a boy or a man look to? Where are his role models to help him know that he can heal? Where are the resources for them? Where can they share their stories safely with no fear of their pain being mocked? As lonely as it felt for me to carry my story, I honestly can’t even imagine the weight of it for male survivors of sexual abuse.
One of my best friends has a little boy and his absolute sweetness and beautiful nature breaks my damn heart, It’s awful to think how many equally sweet and beautiful little boys have been effectively left to the wolves because somewhere somebody decided that boys are never vulnerable and that boys don’t have feelings.
I just stumbled upon [this fascinating and so sad NPR interview with a woman talking about this exact thing!](https://www.npr.org/2021/03/07/974617804/to-raise-a-boy-author-on-addressing-sexual-violence-against-boys)
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Hi all,
Andrew Reiner has written a valuable piece over on [Psyche.co](https://Psyche.co) entitled [‘How to be a man’](https://psyche.co/guides/how-to-be-a-man-who-has-inner-strength-and-emotional-resilience) that addresses several of OP’s points and more. Worth a read if you have 10-15 minutes.>”Old ideas of manliness make us miserable. Being labelled ‘toxic’ doesn’t help. A reimagined masculinity is the way forward.”
Reiner teaches men’s studies, cultural studies and writing at Towson University in Maryland, where he offers the seminar ‘The Changing Face of Masculinity’.
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I like to think about the “famine and masculine” like the yin yang. You need both to be balanced and in harmony. You need both to create! Maybe we associate some things with a “female energy” but it doesnt mean men cant possess those attributes! (Same goes the other way around obviously) Be sensitive, or not. Be physically strong, or not. Be short, or not. Be.. idk. But be yourself and be happy, or at least try to !
You deserve to exist, you deserve to feel and as long as you’re harming none you’re doing fucking good and you are amazing ! I do not know men’s struggles, I can only witness them when talking to some friends, but be sure that I’d hug each one of you if you need it, I’d be here to give you a shoulder to cry on, an ear to listen, and my support! Thank you for being you ❤
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I wanna see what people think of when they think of “healthy masculinity.” Who do you think are good examples?
I’ll go first: Bob Ross. Military service, deep connection with nature, accomplished artist, and unapologetic in his discussions about seeking happiness, even during the dark moments.
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Shout out to all the men in my life who were mentors in my career.
That’s one thing women like me have always needed, men who saw my potential and nurtured it, defended it, and occasionally shined the spotlight on it.
My last great boss stood up at a meeting where his boss openly complained about me being aggressive at my job. He looked around at all the people at the meeting and said, “All of you got here by using the same attitude and skills that Muff has… The only difference is she’s a woman. Because she’s a woman, those skills are what? Bad? Difficult?”
I didn’t find out it happened from him. Another manager told me after the fact. Boss didn’t want me to “feel bad” about it.
He told me he was embarrassed by it all.Thanks guys for always treating me like one of the team and not just another pretty face who makes excellent coffee.
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I have been incredibly fortunate. My father never went in for locker room talk. Never owned guns, and as far as I know never resorted to violence. So the example was set early on.
I grew up with 3 wonderful, strong women and the understanding that everyone should be able to do every job. As a result I can cook, clean, do laundry, sew, can, iron. My sisters can buck wood, change oil, use a chainsaw. Everyone worked until the work was done. There was no men’s work or women’s work. So I avoided many of the toxic masculinity trappings.
But “touch” is one of the things I think about the most. And to be honest, miss the most. As boys get older they don’t touch other people or get touched as much. For example, my barber is the only person who touches my head.
In Susan Faludi’s book “Stiffed: the betrayal of the American man” there is a poignant comparison of a men’s football team in the 1900s and a modern day football team. And one of the striking differences is that in the modern team they don’t touch each other. They sit in rows shoulder to shoulder.
The team photo from 1900, the men have their arms draped around each other or leaning up against each other or resting across one another’s laps. Things that would be unthinkable in today’s modern ideal of masculinity.
I try to change that in my small way. I hug my friends when I see them. No hand shake will do. I tell my friends I love them regardless of their gender. People everywhere need to hear they are appreciated and valued.
I have been a member of this sub for awhile now probably over a year. Originally because I am pagan if anything. I stay because I appreciate the positive inclusivity. Thank you.
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I have never fitted in. Not ever. And I’d like to relay a quick anecdote about the group enforcement of toxic culture and remind everyone that the oppressor is often reflecting and passing on their own (unexamined) feelings. Early in my career (careering😅) I worked in a call centre. On phones all day. One morning the centre supervisor (a man a few years older than me and definitely quite Bloke) saw me without a tie… He wasn’t rude or loud but pulled me over and said “if I have to wear one of these stupid thing then so do you”. 👀 We often talk about internalised sexism or racism but there are also a lot of repressed men who are stuck in a system they don’t like or don’t even know they don’t like. This leads to a lot of really unhealthy relationships and behaviours. *clearly this is not meant as some kind of men’s lib or terfy rant but I think that there are a lot of men who need sympathy for their situation and kindness is a kind of magic* 🧡🦇💚
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Happy International Men’s Day!
Fun Fact: Some of the best humans who ever lived have been men! Today we celebrate you!
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Thank you for making this post! I see an unfortunate amount of male-bashing in this sub which makes me sad. I have been having a rough day so I’m going to use this post as a way to vent.
The first thing I have to talk about relates to women the most. I’ve been told on many occasions I am outwardly intimidating. Physically I’m a bit larger than average and I have a rather ‘brutish’ build. Frankly, I feel like shit knowing that my presence can make women uncomfortable or they may think I’m a creep. To try and lessen this, I’ve really worked hard on making my mannerisms and outward appearance gentler, softer, and generally more approachable. This has kind of went in the wrong direction, as now I semi-regularly am assumed to be queer. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being LGBTQ+, it’s just that as a heterosexual man it has lead to some very confusing situations. The first of two issues that I have from this awkward duality is that I’m anxious approaching women because I don’t want to make them uncomfortable or scared. The other is that it’s actually quite difficult to saddle the line between scary dude and outwardly-gay guy. I have a lot of issues with my appearance and I really don’t like how I look the majority of the time. Both of these things has really hurt my confidence, especially when it comes to dating.
Sometimes I feel like an alien that’s been exiled to live among people. I feel isolated a lot of the time, especially with the pandemic. I struggle to make friends and connect with others. I don’t go to bars, watch sports, or much else that many guys do for fun. I’ve been trying to find things or events to make friends at, but there isn’t much at the moment.
I don’t really have a place to talk about my issues or problems and it’s generally assumed that because I’m a man I have everything figured out and I’m fine. And if I don’t then I must be defective or I have failed as a man in some way. I have struggles, problems, issues, moments when I fuck up. I’m human too. Empathy is worth it’s weight in gold.
Men have to live with double standards too. I think one of the most egregious is body shaming. No one has control over their height, hair, genital size, or sexual capabilities. Yet guys have to deal with constant jokes and belittlement for all sorts of things from being short or bald to their ability to preform in the bedroom. One of the things that isn’t discussed enough is how men have body image issues resulting from media beauty standards too. Super attractive men are cast all the time in movies and television, and we compare ourselves to the Brad Pitt’s, Will Smith’s, Leonardo DiCaprio’s. However, we aren’t really included in the conversation when it comes to stretch marks or body hair as women are.
The last thing I want to say is that I honestly appreciate women. So many of you are so great and helpful. I find that I have a lot to learn, and that you are oftentimes great teachers. I would like to especially shout out lesbians. I have had a lot of great conversations and interactions with gay women that I cherish.
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1. I need similar male friends. That’s very hard to find in the Midwest. I’ll will always remember the Christmas celebration when everyone in our group shared I love you’s and sincere hugs. It felt good to be able to be my sentimental self without judgement.
2. I’ve called friends out for jokes that I’d consider out of bounds.
3. I’m a man because I’m a man. I like the Popeye principle where I’m what I am because I simply am. I’m a dude because I say I’m a dude.Healthy masculinity (in my opinion) is focused caring and helping. My best chance at legacy is teaching both of my kids be true to themselves
