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Discussion
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The crone archetype
updated 7 months, 2 weeks ago 2 Members · 19 Replies
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I feel like the high priestess *should* be that archetype, but is chronically portrayed as young and nubile because the occult orders that influenced the development of esoteric tarot at the time were misogynists and every female in the whole deck had to look young.
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The Empress gives me that Crone Energy.
There is a lack of representation for older women in, well, *all of everything.*
In most ancient cultures, it was a group of older women that prepared the bodies for their respective rituals and such.
I think, over time, the patriarchy/society became afraid of Crones because they worked with the dead.
I work as a CNA in a nursing home so I am no stranger to death, grief, etc. My quick acceptance of such things has caused me to stop attending funerals because my family is so judgemental.
They mistake my quick acceptance for being numb, not caring, etc.
Secondly, it didn’t take men long to figure out young women are easy to manipulate.
I *dare* a man to try those tactics on me today.
20 year old me didn’t have a clue.
38 year old me?
Has a stubborn streak and one mean left hook.
Finally, it’s strategic. Divide and conquer. Elevate the young and shut them away when they’re old enough to know better. Keep them separated so the wisdom and the knowledge is lost. So they can keep control.
True power can only be supressed, contained for so long before it comes back to bite you in the ass.
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I’m doing my best to keep this timeline fair.
My sincere best understanding would suggest that an *contemporary* wiccan crone would not come about until decades after the Rider-Waite-Smith deck. Contemporary reconstructed wicca itself would been developed and popularized after the publication of the original Rider-Waite Smith.
* 1909: The first publication of the Rider-Waite-Smith deck.
* 1919: Carl Jung wrote “Instinct and the Unconscious,” which quite probably included the first usage of the word *archetype.*
* 1948: “The White Goddess” was published, bringing the Maiden / Mother / Crone concept in the contemporary western world.
* 1954: The founding of what we now call Gardnerian Wicca.
* 1970s: Future offshoots of Gardnerian Wicca would include the more feminist leaning Dianic Wicca (1970s). By multiple accounts, this was when the triple goddess really became a popular concept in the contemporary Western world.Crone archetypes certainly did exist before 1909. The stories of Baba Yaga would serve as one example.
It is also possible that I may have made a mistake in focusing entirely on western European concepts of an elderly wise woman.
Despite everything, it absolutely makes sense for contemporary decks to incorporate a crone archetype. There have been fifty years of intersection between paganism, feminism, and tarot. Even I hoped to see more acknowledgement after all of this time.
I went through a **lot** of decks looking for any sort of elderly wise woman.
Successes, big and small.
* **The Motherpeace Tarot** outright replaces the Hermit (IX) with a *Crone* card. This deck was an explicitly feminist & witchy deck. It seems to still be in publication, and would probably be of interest to much of this thread or subreddit.
* **The Green Witch Tarot** outright replaces the Strength (VIII) with *The Crone*.
* **Tarot of the Divine** by Yoshi Yoshitani: The 6 of Coins features an elderly woman, seemingly of Inuit heritage.
* **Erotic Fantasy Tarot** (Lo Scarabeo) by Joseph Viglioglia and Giacomo Gailli: The Moon (XVIII) and Lovers (VI) explicitly depict the Maiden, Mother, and Crone as three women.I am incredibly sure that other decks have made use of either the Crone or the Triple Goddess. “Witchy” and feminist decks alike have existed for decades. It would be worth examining more of those.
Notable decks that did **not** include a crone or elderly woman included The Modern Witch Tarot and the Light Seer’s Tarot.
If this is something people value then it might be worth politely speaking with deck creators. Politely.
**Edit**: Adding the Lovers card to the Erotic Fantasy Tarot.
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Hermit? I never assume the gender of a figure in tarot is really about gender, but energy. I don’t think of Empress as necessarily “mother”, but “nurturer” for example.
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I’ve heard the Queen of Swords described as the “widow” card
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Hermit or High Priestess
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u/iiiiiiggggggvs I love this post! Frankly, as someone who is 53 years-of-age, even when I was in my 20s I was crystal clear that not everyone is young and beautiful. Not to mention that many societies place greater importance on someone who is under 30, and discarding anyone who is above that age, but I digress.
For me, The High Priestess is one of those Tarot Cards that represent Crone Energy. Then again, since the Goddess more commonly known as Isis Is my Mother Goddess, I see Her as a Triple Goddess, and as The High Priestess, the Crone Energy is strong with Key II. I also get that Crone Energy from the Queen of Swords, as she seems to be the oldest of the Queens, and not the “typical” mother type of energy represented in the other Queens.
I would also nominate: The World, Ace of Pentacles, Ten of Pentacles and The Hermit Card, as well.
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I have seen a few decks (names do not come to mind…I know, BIG HELP!) where they have 78+ cards that has included a Crone card. Seems to make sense to me. Norse myth talks about the Crones of Fate that decide everything we do by the plucking of a string. Or the wizened woman who knows everything about the important things who lives in the corner house.
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Nine of Pentacles always seems like a mature female energy to me.
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Someone burning up from menopause and coming out of the ashes like a phoenix lol!! Speaking from a 52f who suffers from hot flashes
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Awesomely, ELP created Tarot of the Crone—it’s pretty amazing. I do wish the archetype of Crone was more appreciated—of course especially the times we are experiencing.
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6 of cups, totally
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Tarot isn’t “missing” anything. Jungian archetypes are anachronistic to it.
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My initial thought was Queen of Wands. Then I thought for a bit longer and I thought the Moon. But it would be nice for it to be a person and I think I agree with others about the High Priestess
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empress
