- September 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm#551339
I feel like the crone archetype is missing in tarot and I think it is a shame. Anyone has suggestions which cards could represent the crone energy?
Spirits850GuestSeptember 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm
Hermit? I never assume the gender of a figure in tarot is really about gender, but energy. I don’t think of Empress as necessarily “mother”, but “nurturer” for example.
MrAndrewJGuestSeptember 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm
I’m doing my best to keep this timeline fair.
My sincere best understanding would suggest that an *contemporary* wiccan crone would not come about until decades after the Rider-Waite-Smith deck. Contemporary reconstructed wicca itself would been developed and popularized after the publication of the original Rider-Waite Smith.
* 1909: The first publication of the Rider-Waite-Smith deck.
* 1919: Carl Jung wrote “Instinct and the Unconscious,” which quite probably included the first usage of the word *archetype.*
* 1948: “The White Goddess” was published, bringing the Maiden / Mother / Crone concept in the contemporary western world.
* 1954: The founding of what we now call Gardnerian Wicca.
* 1970s: Future offshoots of Gardnerian Wicca would include the more feminist leaning Dianic Wicca (1970s). By multiple accounts, this was when the triple goddess really became a popular concept in the contemporary Western world.
Crone archetypes certainly did exist before 1909. The stories of Baba Yaga would serve as one example.
It is also possible that I may have made a mistake in focusing entirely on western European concepts of an elderly wise woman.
Despite everything, it absolutely makes sense for contemporary decks to incorporate a crone archetype. There have been fifty years of intersection between paganism, feminism, and tarot. Even I hoped to see more acknowledgement after all of this time.
I went through a **lot** of decks looking for any sort of elderly wise woman.
Successes, big and small.
* **The Motherpeace Tarot** outright replaces the Hermit (IX) with a *Crone* card. This deck was an explicitly feminist & witchy deck. It seems to still be in publication, and would probably be of interest to much of this thread or subreddit.
* **The Green Witch Tarot** outright replaces the Strength (VIII) with *The Crone*.
* **Tarot of the Divine** by Yoshi Yoshitani: The 6 of Coins features an elderly woman, seemingly of Inuit heritage.
* **Erotic Fantasy Tarot** (Lo Scarabeo) by Joseph Viglioglia and Giacomo Gailli: The Moon (XVIII) and Lovers (VI) explicitly depict the Maiden, Mother, and Crone as three women.
I am incredibly sure that other decks have made use of either the Crone or the Triple Goddess. “Witchy” and feminist decks alike have existed for decades. It would be worth examining more of those.
Notable decks that did **not** include a crone or elderly woman included The Modern Witch Tarot and the Light Seer’s Tarot.
If this is something people value then it might be worth politely speaking with deck creators. Politely.
**Edit**: Adding the Lovers card to the Erotic Fantasy Tarot.
NocturnalTarotGuestSeptember 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm
The Empress gives me that Crone Energy.
There is a lack of representation for older women in, well, *all of everything.*
In most ancient cultures, it was a group of older women that prepared the bodies for their respective rituals and such.
I think, over time, the patriarchy/society became afraid of Crones because they worked with the dead.
I work as a CNA in a nursing home so I am no stranger to death, grief, etc. My quick acceptance of such things has caused me to stop attending funerals because my family is so judgemental.
They mistake my quick acceptance for being numb, not caring, etc.
Secondly, it didn’t take men long to figure out young women are easy to manipulate.
I *dare* a man to try those tactics on me today.
20 year old me didn’t have a clue.
38 year old me?
Has a stubborn streak and one mean left hook.
Finally, it’s strategic. Divide and conquer. Elevate the young and shut them away when they’re old enough to know better. Keep them separated so the wisdom and the knowledge is lost. So they can keep control.
True power can only be supressed, contained for so long before it comes back to bite you in the ass.
FireMysteriesGuestSeptember 13, 2023 at 9:22 pm
Maybe the Queens?
Or, in some decks (if they are presented as feminine) the Hierophant and the Hermit?
It is unusual how young the High Priestess is usually portrayed, isn’t it?
I love Danielle Noel’s decks for example but there is often criticism how the Queens are all so young. From the time the original Moonchild deck was published until now there’s been a lot of advancement in age and body diversity, so the new edition, still with 20 year old Queens is even more jarring.
The Queens are meant to be mature women.