When did the trend of downplaying the supernatural within magick begin?

[bolfbanderbister]

Something I’ve noticed a lot of in my readings is a modern tendency to downplay the effects of magick as completely psychological in nature. From shifting goetic demons to mere jungian archetypes, to the HGA being seen as ones higher self, the “cool new thing” in the occult seems to be a desire to demystify the mystical as much as possible.

Personally, that interpretation doesn’t appeal to me, as I find the idea of communicating with other intelligences and connecting with something bigger than me to achieve at least temporary transcendence to be far more exciting than just hallucinating parts of my own brain talking to me or therapy with a few extra bells and whistles. That being said, I would be interested to know when this trend started.

Discussion

[2manyaltaccountz]

I am a partially mystical witch- you could say agnostic. I don’t take it as certain that there are deities or spirits, but I do keep an eye out for them. I have had a few interactions that I believe to have been supernatural in nature, and all of them have been as physical manifestations with perfect timing. Some of my spells are placebo-based, but many others aren’t. I really do want to see the magical side of this world, it has fascinated me for as long as I can remember.

I recall a time when I myself was constantly anxious about a different religion. I was scared I would do something wrong and invoke God’s wrath. When I started my Craft, I saw myself falling into the same patterns. *I was just anxious about different deities*. I want to practice, but I also want to do it in a healthy way. So I avoid deity work. I don’t look down on others who use it in their Craft, and I try to respect others’ beliefs no matter what.

I try to see the magical alongside the mundane. They are closely intertwined. And I try to keep an eye out for anything in my practice that may be doing more harm than good.

Edit: Grammar fixes

[chan_jkv]

I think it has to do with how people interpret magic. Like, there’s r/SASSWitches to whom everything is psychological and scientific. And, I get it, some people are more comfortable with energy and psychology and a non-supernatural interpretation of witchcraft. It makes them more comfy, it feels more real in the world for them. It makes magic “understandable” and predictable.

​

Now, me, when I was taught magic I was also taught about vampires, were-creatures and things that go bump in the night. And to not hike alone in the mountains because “things are sleepin’ in them caves.” I was also taught a healthy respect for all religions and magical practices.

[kai-ote]

Thousands of years ago. Ancient Greek philosophers for one were attempting to create an explanation for the world that had less of a deity bend, and more of a scientific description of reality.

And I am sure there were others even before that.

If you mean what is recent, a lot of recent ideas came about during the pandemic, as lots of people with computers and tons of free time looked for something to do. And so that would be the time stamp of these opinions that I see. BB.

[OneHotTurnip]

For me, I’m not sure what I believe. I haven’t had a lot of experiences that I would say make me certain there’s something else out there but I also can’t say I believe it’s all just psychology. The way I see it, there’s no harm in me interpreting things as mystical and interesting to me as long as it gets the job done. I made a potion and it seems to have worked? Cool, I benefitted. Even if it’s just psychology, that thing still happened to me and if it’s all nothingness in the end then there’s no harm in me believing that a higher power did it. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Puzzleheaded-War-113]

Oh my God. I thought I was the only one. If you ever watched Buffy, the conversation willow had with the Wiccan group is super relatable.

[chimeraoncamera]

Everyone has their own way of interpreting and understanding the world around them. I dont think there is a right or wrong way, but over the course of my schooling in science, I have learned that an entirely scientific worldview is too reductionist. Science has limits and is not always the best approach to every situation, especially so for spiritual matters. If you only use science to see the world, you will miss out on so much.

I choose to embrace the eclectic, mystical, and transcendant experiences in my life without listening to or considering what a scientific viewpoint would be. I use science when it makes sense to do so, and even then I must constantly consider the limitations of scientific data. Science is not the right tool for understanding spiritual aspects of life.

[greeneyedwench]

It’s definitely been around as long as I’ve been doing this, and I’m old. I think it’s partly to be more palatable to the rest of society by pre-defusing the “You don’t really believe in *magic*, do you?” argument, and partly because it really can be useful and have an effect on you even if you never experience anything supernatural.

[BrambleBroomflower]

When did the trend of downplaying Poetic Truth as somehow lesser or inferior to scientific truth begin?

[Elen_Smithee82]

I’ve had so many paranormal, actually paranormal experiences, I can’t count them. I have them almost every day. I have found that it has become a big faux pas to describe experiences as paranormal, or show off your true powers. I am also an oracle and empath, and I use pendulums, cards, dowsing rods, the I Ching, Russian Gypsy Cards, Runes, the Bible, Witch Runes, crystals and many other oracle tools to divine answers. I see auras, I can control/predict crystal dice, move a crystal pendulum, create a very strong EMF using two crystal palmstones, call a thunderstorm into being, talk to spirits, perform reiki healing on myself and others, perform crystal healing on myself and others, perform tuning fork sound healing on myself and others, speak to animals and plants, and other abilities that I don’t tell people often. If I did anywhere else, I’d be ridiculed for telling the truth. I wish we could get back to the way things were, telling the truth, using the word paranormal, because many things we experience simply ARE just that. They are magick, whether you spell it with a k or not, I only do because it delineates the real from the Vegas stage plays. We are witches, are we not? And what we do is magick, is it not? Then why don’t we just say so?

[ekbutterballs]

Maybe it’s a ploy to gain more adoptability in the mainstream. The time is right.

[MagikWdragons]

It could be an appeal to an atheist/skeptic/non-deistic witches I suppose. Allot of it is also Alestir Crawley’s influence as well.

However, I’ve seen some witches that don’t believe in gods, spirits, ect… For me, this takes the mystical out of magik and that’s just plain boring… lol

I’m not saying such magik isn’t effective. I just find it to be not so fun… I mean, one great aspect of magik is, it still works even if it is more “fantasy” or “mystical” practices. So who’s to really say who is mentally I’ll or not. One can easily argue having an altar, candles and incense without talking to spirits is a mental health problem because according to real science, Magik without gods and entities is just as insane as without gods and entities.

[whoppitydodah]

There’s a huge influx of people from more traditional religions. They carry that fear of supernatural over and justify their change by creating their own, non-threatening interpretations of the word magic.

[Seth_Mimik]

To specifically address the OP’s question, the trend started in the late 1800’s when magic and occult studies and practices had a huge renaissance. This was post-enlightenment times, so there was a big tendency to take a rational, psychological approach to it all.

The golden dawn, Crowley, and later Regardie all furthered concepts like the demons of grimoiric magic are simply different parts or aspects of your mind/psyche, rather than actual separate and individual spirits.

And of course over time, more and more people took these ideas and kept watering it down until we get the whole “magic is just spicy psychology” sentiment we so often see today.

And hey, if that’s what works for them and is all they need to feel like they have a fulfilling practice, then more power to them.

[radblackgirlfriend]

This mindset has been around for awhile and I’ve generally seen it linked to multiple things. But, off the top of my head;

1. Humanocentrism gives people a sense of control. The notion of deities and spirits who don’t necessarily “care” about humanity, let alone our goals, can be uncomfortable for some people. Especially if they come from the idea of viewing the universe, deities, and even other people as ATMs for empowerment and validation (something you see A LOT of in various American witchcraft communities-especially politically liberal ones.)
2. Seeking legitimacy. Back in the 90’s it was attempting to be “more Christian than Christians” by waxing poetic about how Christ-like witches/pagans were. We don’t judge. We don’t do harmful things/magick. Blah blah blah. Now that most people aren’t facing BS for being openly pagan anymore (in much of America at least), it’s about keeping up with the popular fundamentalist materialism to show that we’re not new age “woo” peddlers.
3. Lack of discipline and actual practice leading to zero experiences and it’s easier to say the reason is that the supernatural doesn’t exist rather than admit one”s own spiritual laziness.

And finally, as controversial as the opinion is;

Taking in Atheist strays who only showed up because they’re nothing more than environmentalists means a realm that WAS originally about reforging those links between spirits/divinity/and the natural world as viewed through the lens of spirituality/supernatural has meant they’ve gotten to proselytize while claiming they’re oppressed if we don’t let them infiltrate our spaces.

I’ve seen so many discussion surrounding magic/divinity derailed by these attention seeking narcissists, I’ve started just telling them to fuck off to an atheist space on sight. *shrug*

My opinion in a few nutshells.

[bunnie-hime]

I think it honestly comes from a place of skepticism, of not wanting to be seen as a fool, and of wanting to participate in all of the fun occultist toys like magic objects and divination tools, even if you’re not sure you believe in them or you even want to.

Tarot is such a big one on this! And honestly, secular witchcraft was totally my gateway drug out of staunch atheism.

I say, give people whatever training wheels they need, allow them to approach witchcraft at their own pace, and things will shake themselves out naturally. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with taking a psychodrama/therapeutic approach, nor with secular witchcraft where you choose not to pick a belief system, nor any of the other myriad of more specific paths.

As long as you aren’t hurting anyone or taking from closed practices, I think it’s a great thing that it’s becoming so normalized, because that changes the public image and reduces chances of a backslide towards persecution. Especially here in the US, the people in power being majority devout (at least out loud) Christian evangelists is super scary to me! On so many levels!

IMO, give everybody and their mom a fuggin crystal and a Rider Waite lmao. Confuse the angry mobs and make it extremely laughable and unpopular to demonize alternative spiritualities. I’ll take the safety of plausible deniability, please and thank you!